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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1187
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Posted - 2013.03.28 16:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
The sovereignty warfare part of FW is not ideal (to say the least), but it has a few benefits: 1. Steady isk income for pvp habit 2. Leads to massive numbers of fights for players actually looking for fights 3. Sovereignty in "home systems" are determined by pvp'ers, not farmers.
So, not "completely broken." And yeah, I was preaching the same thing when Gallente were at Tier 1. Farmers are gonna farm, but their influence on our daily activities in FW can be managed.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1198
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Posted - 2013.04.01 14:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Posting in another "I'm too much of a ***** to look for fights where pvp'ers live and am complaining that there are farmers in backwater systems" thread. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1198
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Posted - 2013.04.01 15:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cearain wrote:posting ignorance again... You complain about people not wanting to have fun fighting for sov, and yet there were 600 kills in the Nenna, Enaluri, Akidagi cluster in the past 24 hours - most of which was plex fighting.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1198
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Posted - 2013.04.01 17:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Colt Blackhawk wrote:Quote:Posting in another "I'm too much of a ***** to look for fights where pvp'ers live and am complaining that there are farmers in backwater systems" thread. Yes because Enaluri+ Nennamalia and all systems 1 jump around are backwater systems^^ Congrats. I guess we agree that you know where to find fights while you are online. Your issue is that you don't enjoy chasing minimum skill alts all across the map.
So, perhaps you should spend time where people pvp and have fun while you are in-game. (?)
Edit: I guess you are saying that you're the only person in Eve that can't find a fight in a three system cluster where there have been 600 kills in the past 24 hours. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1199
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Posted - 2013.04.02 15:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Again the reason people don't care about winning sov in fw is because it's broken. If it were fun and a good game people would try to win it. Chasing rabbits is not fun. So, how do any of your proposals make chasing rabbits fun? |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1199
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Posted - 2013.04.02 17:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cearain wrote:No more chasing. Just fighting in plexes a jump or 2 away. How are you going to fight them if they run?
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1200
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Posted - 2013.04.02 20:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:No more chasing. Just fighting in plexes a jump or 2 away. How are you going to fight them if they run? I won't I will let someone else fight them and keep fighting people within 1 - 3 jumps of me. The rabbits will be run off the map and the only people left doing plexes will be pvpers. Until you leave. Then they will be back. Just like now. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1201
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Posted - 2013.04.02 23:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cearain wrote:I anticipate there will be at least 10 people in each militia that like pvp and therefore will continue to fight for plexes when I am not online. If these fictional people actually existed, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
If they do exist, then I suggest you join FW, form a corporation with these people, and then go out and dominate FW. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1204
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Posted - 2013.04.03 17:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
Takseen wrote:Cearain wrote: Under the current mechanics pvpers can't dominate fw.
They can, you just need more of them under the current system. An average of 2 pvp pilots per contested system should suffice. In essence it requires a large number of warm bodies spread over a very large area. Instead of nullsec Sov, which requires a large number of warm bodies shoved into a very small area... Correction: Null Sec - Large number of cold bodies shoved into a very small area.
They only come out of their slumber when there is a capital fight to be had. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1206
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Posted - 2013.04.04 04:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: If there was a notification system, no doubt you would have stayed in the plex to finish it off?
When you find a rabbit on your own and chase off, then it's PvE. If you find him using a notification system, then it's PvP! |
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1208
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Posted - 2013.04.04 13:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:X Gallentius wrote: When you find a rabbit on your own and chase off, then it's PvE. If you find him using a notification system, then it's PvP!
I FINALLY UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE. Don't feel bad. It took me 2 years to understand Cearain's genius. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1210
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Posted - 2013.04.04 14:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:X Gallentius wrote: When you find a rabbit on your own and chase off, then it's PvE. If you find him using a notification system, then it's PvP!
I FINALLY UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE. Don't feel bad. It took me 2 years to understand Cearain's genius. XG I know you are very upset about the idea that players will actually know where their military complexes are being attacked so that they can defend them in an organized way. But there really is no genius involved. If you want people to be able to defend plexes in pvp then letting them know where their military complexes are being attacked, is the first step. Its not that the idea is so hard to grasp. Your failure to get it is more of a "you" problem. You're right, there is no genius involved. Saying "No notification = PvE mechanic, Notification = PvP mechanic" requires no intelligence whatsoever. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1210
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Posted - 2013.04.04 16:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cearain wrote: But the main thing is once you had a notification system (and rollbacks) militias would see that they have an effective tool to try to fight the farm hordes and they would be more organized in doing that. It wouldn't take one hundred pilots really just 10 or so from each milita.
1. Rollbacks first. (Quit punishing a player for "winning" a plex fight, encourage others to stay and fight (yes, farmers will cloak up) 2. Then timer restrictions - only a T1/T2 cruiser can run a medium, for example. Bring the right ship for the plex you farmers! 3. Then go to notification. We're too lazy to do our job, but what the hell let's give those few guys who live to plex a better intel tool to work with.
Fair enough? |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1213
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Posted - 2013.04.05 17:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cearain wrote:In fact few other specific fw proposal that had as much support. There has been universal support for timer rollbacks. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1215
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Posted - 2013.04.05 23:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:This is XG`s fault. I apologize. I sincerely apologize. I really, really apologize. I regret any comments that caused this problem. I am truly sorry.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1217
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Posted - 2013.04.06 18:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Says more about the quality of modern day PvP'ers if hunting/euthanizing stab monkeys is what gets them off .. Point missed. The pvp'ers are making enough isk while fighting for plexes against real pvp'ers. Win/win for them.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1217
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Posted - 2013.04.06 22:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
Well if they aren't reading it and you are upset enough about it, then I guess you should run for CSM or quit FW. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1217
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Posted - 2013.04.07 16:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
Cearain wrote: While I am in favor of timer rollbacks and agree that it seems to be the most popular proposal right now. It is inaccurate to say that it is universally accepted by everyone.
In statistics > 95% is considered "certain". Sorry for the misunderstanding. This is different from the numbers on "notification system" which is less than 10%.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1218
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Posted - 2013.04.07 21:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Why am I not surprised your math is terrible. 25 people upvoted notifications and you think that is less than 10% of people who have voiced an opinion on it. Every single person I've talked to has stated that notifications is moronic and dumbs down the game. This is coming from pvp'ers who participate in occupancy warfare, not the farmers. I apologize for not looking at your up-votes. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1219
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Posted - 2013.04.08 00:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:Why am I not surprised your math is terrible. 25 people upvoted notifications and you think that is less than 10% of people who have voiced an opinion on it. Every single person I've talked to has stated that notifications is moronic and dumbs down the game. This is coming from pvp'ers who participate in occupancy warfare, not the farmers. I apologize for not looking at your up-votes. Ill go with actual data instead of your claims. Dumbs down the game? So the current mechanic where the best plexers fit stabs and run from all pvp requires more cleverness than pvping for the plex. Great conclusion to reach. Would you care to link the post with 25 upvotes? I can't find it in this thread. Maybe it is in some other thread somewhere? In fact you are the ONLY person in this thread that I have seen in favor of notifications. I could be wrong. There might be one more person in favor (with everybody else opposed), but the actual data in this thread is clear. The community is opposed to notifications.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1219
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Posted - 2013.04.08 03:08:00 -
[21] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Check my sig and the thread that is linked in that thread. . Edit: Misread. But I'm glad there are 13 people who gave you a thumbs up a long time ago. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1219
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Posted - 2013.04.08 03:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
Cearain wrote:XG basically said fw was fixed after they did away with the downtime spawn mechanic. They have never gotten rid of the after downtime mechanic. But I was happy with FW when they introduced the perpetual respawning plexes that minimized the effect of the after dt plexes. And with all the other iterations of FW, the current version is the best.
Of all the potential modifications in this thread, the notification system has received the least support.
Timer rollbacks is almost universally accepted as a good thing.
Removing warp core stabs and cloaks has received more support than the notification system.
Reducing isk/payouts or removing the Tier levels (the main cause of farmers - just notice how many show up once a side reached Tier 3) has received more support than the notification system.
More difficult to kill rats/only appropriately sized ships can run timers has received more support than a notification system.
Interesting data, don't you think?
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1219
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Posted - 2013.04.08 04:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Not me a thumbs up they gave the idea of notifications a thumbs up.
I'm glad 13 people gave notifications (not you) a thumbs up years ago. And I'm sorry that your notifications proposal is frowned upon by the majority of people in this thread. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1220
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Posted - 2013.04.08 16:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Cearain wrote:for them. All I ask is that we have just one quality pvp mechanic. Look into FW plexes lately? Great quality pvp mechanic. In fact, you yourself use them all the time to get fights.
Great debate. Thanks everybody for participating. We're done here! Let's move on to another topic.
Would you like to restate your request?
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1228
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Posted - 2013.04.08 20:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
Dude, you're answering the same things multiple times now. And again, I'm glad 13 people gave you an upvote years ago and are somewhat disappointed nearly everybody today puts a notification system at the bottom of a list of potential modifications to occupancy warfare plexing mechanics. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1228
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Posted - 2013.04.08 21:18:00 -
[26] - Quote
Cearain wrote:The rest of your post is not really intelligible, but thats ok. I don't care how popular you think the proposal is. I'll make it easy for you. Your notifications proposal has received less support than almost every other proposal out there. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1229
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Posted - 2013.04.08 22:03:00 -
[27] - Quote
Just look at this thread and start counting how much support your proposal has and compare it to any number of other suggestions.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1229
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Posted - 2013.04.08 22:26:00 -
[28] - Quote
The pattern is clear in this thread. Timer rollbacks have near universal support. Proposed notifications are nearly universally rejected.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1232
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Posted - 2013.04.08 23:10:00 -
[29] - Quote
2manno Asp wrote:well, at least he's got alts to like his unsupported claims. sort of like ogb for forums. nerf alt likes! PS - i'd like to see a notification system of sorts. That's one. Who's next?
Seriously, I (quickly, could have missed somebody) went through this thread and didn't find anybody else in support of notifications. There was universal support for timer rollbacks and many more posters agreeing with other suggestions than the notifications.
Edit: Two now. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1239
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Posted - 2013.04.09 16:00:00 -
[30] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Cearain wrote:ALUCARD 1208 wrote:cearain wrote: That would change if we had notifications. The best pvpers in eve would be the most sought after for each militia. hahaha and the roads are paved with gold and houses are made of candy..... stop dreaming mate Again we think different. I think that fw already has many of the best small gang pvpers in eve. Unfortunately, their pvp abilities don't really contribute to the sov war effort under these mechanics. A 2 day alt can, and usually will, capture more plexes than the best pvpers. Cearain - notifications won't change that. Lets say we had your system: I get a notification saying 'X Gal is in a T1 derp Atron in the Novice Outpost in Enaluri' 2 min later a [PLEX] blob hits that plex. (Pretending we blob for the example) PvP is now all blob warfare. So what does X Gal need to do next time ??? He has no choice but to form up and bring the blob as well. and guess what.... After we drive him out or if lucky kill him, we all leave for the next 'notification' The PvPers still have not and will not run the plex. WHY?? Cause we now have a system feeding us intel and we can just pew pew 23/7 and never need to sit in a plex running it down waiting for a fight. Your system will provide the opposite effect of what you intend. XG warps into plex all alone.... and then has blob waiting on other side of gate, in safe spot, or camping in-gate to system with arty thrashers waiting for your blob. So, in one sense it's good for pvp because we don't have to scout around looking for trouble. In another sense, it's bad because we'll all just sit in station playing DUST until we get a notification that a plex is under attack. Then we'll undock and go at it.
However, what I don't think will happen is me (one of the more occupancy warfare centric players out there) caring whether or not some alt in the opposing faction is farming in Uphallant. Maybe Aldranette - if it is highly contested. I'll run over there and push him out, but I'm still not going to sit on the button after he leave just because there's a notification system.
I think Cearain puts too much hope in people using their gaming time to chase alts in far off systems. I don't think he'll do it. I don't think anybody in favor of a Notification System will do it. I think (I could be wrong) that they all hope SOMEBODY ELSE will do it for them. Maybe somebody will, but probably not. |
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1239
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Posted - 2013.04.09 16:13:00 -
[31] - Quote
Andre Vauban wrote: This FW sov system is actually almost the perfect sov system. It is so much better than 0.0. If nobody defends the system for more than 12 hours a day, it will easily fall. This is perfect, we should not be asking for this to change. What we should be asking for is a reason to defend systems that we don't care if we can dock in or not.
I think the Tier system is supposed to provide the motivation. However, it's the Tier system that provides the motivation for alts to come out in force.
I don't think there's a great answer for this other than bending the rules to provide real consequences to those who aren't willing to defend the plex they are running (Timer rollback, or perhaps amplified timer rollback (2x pace).), or reducing payouts for plexes so that there is still a decent income for us to replace ships but not enough for others to farm. What I've experiences on the Gallente side is that the limit is somewhere above Tier 1 payouts and just slightly below Tier 2. (Tier 3 = farmers, definitely)
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1241
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Posted - 2013.04.09 18:04:00 -
[32] - Quote
Andre Vauban wrote:Cearain wrote:I would be most interested in plexes that are being run within 3 jumps of me. We already kind of do this. Every night when QCATS runs our not-a-fleet fleet, we have an alt (or QCATS toon) in every single system within 2-4 jumps from Nisuwa. The problem with your statement is there is no motivation for chasing the rabbits. There is no killmail to be had, it is not fun, there is no financial reward, and it doesn't help the sov war in any way shape or form as you must spend more time than the farmer to undo the damage (ie the farmer wins because they waste more man-hours of the enemies time). This pretty much nails the "objection" to the notification system. To us, it seems like it will miss on achieving it's stated purpose of "turning backwater system plex warfare into a pvp mechanic."
Another option to "make people care about the entire theater" is to remove several constellations nobody cares about from the FW arena.
Gallente/Caldari FW View as Constellations
The first six constellations in the following list could easily be removed from the map and nobody would care, tbh. 1. Fislepsisnes 2. Otasawa 3. Ieyama 4. Serthoulde 5. Obrey 6. Urpiken 7. Kurala (I think one Caldari corporation likes Okkamon) 8. Woencke (a Caldari corporation actually lives in Loes right now, so this is where the list ends) |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1252
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Posted - 2013.04.10 17:18:00 -
[33] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Now we have lots more militia gate camps and not as many station camps. Personally I prefer the station camps. At least you can do things like make insta undocks and/or keep some assets in a different station.
The instalock gate camps with the proliferation of ogb have made it so no casual player in low sec wants to risk anything larger than a dessie. Gatecamps are part of low sec. If there are more gate camps it's because there are more people in low sec. Also, instalocking gatecamps pwn dessies.
What doesn't make sense is for the enemy to be able to dock up in a system that they have lost.
Roundabout arguments aside, station lockouts are here to stay.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1252
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Posted - 2013.04.10 17:31:00 -
[34] - Quote
Cearain wrote:What doesn't make sense is that a 24th Imperial Crusade station won't let its own members dock. I'm surprised the Minmatar haven't alreaday spray painted "Former" in front of the sign at the entrance of the station. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1252
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Posted - 2013.04.10 18:12:00 -
[35] - Quote
There's nothing stopping anybody from camping stations in FW systems. Put up the POS. Move your ships in. Have at it.
Oh wait, you meant "play station docking games". Yeah, can't do that any more. Sorry. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1253
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Posted - 2013.04.10 21:01:00 -
[36] - Quote
"Summary of Entire Thread" by Juan Rayo: Link |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1256
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Posted - 2013.04.10 23:34:00 -
[37] - Quote
Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:"Summary of Entire Thread" by Juan Rayo: Link Yeah right, the intel channels are working great. We all agree that sov in over 90% of systems is decided by rabbits. We need to convince the FW generals to implement a "clear and hold" strategy. This "clear and bail" strategy clearly isn't working. We must learn to constantly patrol these lightly populated areas and get to know the locals. Only then will be we able to wipe out these terrorist cells! |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1256
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Posted - 2013.04.11 01:29:00 -
[38] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:We all agree that four or five extremely vocal forum warriors don't care about those 90% of systems. Working as intended. If only the other 15,000 players in factional warfare stopped caring so much about those backwater systems... It's like there's 250 people logged into each militia at all times of the day, and they are all spread out over each system fighting non-stop. It's so much fun to run the plexes in these backwater systems that "Gallente Militia Plexing Command" channel is bursting with players. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1256
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Posted - 2013.04.11 02:18:00 -
[39] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Yay! The pvp in fw is mainly players who never leave their blobs and boosters in their base systems! How dare anyone expect more pvp opportunities than that?
The notification system will solve this! |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1257
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Posted - 2013.04.11 04:29:00 -
[40] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Yes that is the point. Pvpers will know exactly where they need to go so they can fight for plexes. They're already out there! It's only those four "crazy" posters who say people don't care about backwater systems. Everybody else CARES. And since they CARE, they are out there every day fighting for those systems that they CARE about!
Really! ..... Honest! No, really!
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1258
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Posted - 2013.04.11 15:12:00 -
[41] - Quote
Seraph Castillon wrote:I'm still not going to do 6 jumps to chase a stabbed plexer out of his plex in backwater placid, even if I get a nice mail telling me exactly where he is and even if his timer resets when I chase him out.
But if there is a notification system, then it's a pvp mechanic. Therefore, you will sit in the plex after you chase the rabbit out. Really. You will. And there will be many more players just like you who will do it as well. Trust me on this. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1258
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Posted - 2013.04.11 15:32:00 -
[42] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Since entire enemy militia will know where I am, and knowing where I am, is the first requirment of my getting pvp I will, of course, be more likely to stay in the plex.
When I was in fw I might stay if there was under 4 minutes left and 5 or more wts in local. With the notifications I might stay if there is 6 minutes left and 3 or more wts in local.
That's a really good point, tbh. But why bother chasing the rabbit in the first place? Just open a plex anywhere, and have at it.
BTW, you're not really fighting the occupancy war are you? You're just using the plex for fights. And, you aren't really interested in chasing the rabbits out at all. It's kind of a strawman argument, isn't it?
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1261
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Posted - 2013.04.12 15:28:00 -
[43] - Quote
2manno Asp wrote:just let them know if system x has an enemy(s) in one of it's plexes - a simple distress signal. the rest is up to the players to figure out and decide what to do. Fair enough. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1359
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Posted - 2013.05.02 14:32:00 -
[44] - Quote
It's Necro day in FW! |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1361
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Posted - 2013.05.03 14:41:00 -
[45] - Quote
GTC don't create isk either, and therefore don't increase the in-game isk supply. |
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